tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post3716598983388164952..comments2023-05-20T12:08:52.031+02:00Comments on In The Games Of Madness: What will save you?Frictional Gameshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00278352641328669040noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-77424200705465680792009-10-09T20:36:44.772+02:002009-10-09T20:36:44.772+02:00Just an idea I had:
AutoSave before an incident.
...Just an idea I had:<br /><br />AutoSave before an incident.<br />If player dies -> Scene changes so he won't be able to die of the same effect again.<br />Player plays the scene -> Dies again - making a different scene.<br /><br />So the saving process would actually be interactive and actually changing something.<br /><br />I'm not talking about making 100 new enviroments -> just new scenario's out of a singular incident - changing frustration into a new adventure.<br /><br />But that's just a thought I had.Daniel D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00837047348420082489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-29717509830123317652009-07-16T23:38:19.959+02:002009-07-16T23:38:19.959+02:00I haven't read through all the comments, but s...I haven't read through all the comments, but save methods could vary depending on the difficulty setting the user chooses before starting a new game.<br /><br />Easy: save anywhere, anytime.<br />Medium: save only after certain objectives are met<br />Difficult: save only at the beginning of a level<br /><br />Also, if the game is nonlinear, to keep players interested in replaying, eliminate certain paths/decisions on easy mode (thus making the game more linear).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-664459975294653052009-07-12T11:19:15.259+02:002009-07-12T11:19:15.259+02:00First I would just like to thank you from the bott...First I would just like to thank you from the bottom of my heart for Penumbra. It was the only real horror game released in years and was a great treat to a jaded fan like me.<br /><br />As for the save system; how about a System Shock 2 style system. In that game every death simply meant that would transported back to a checkpoint upon death, there was only one checkpoint per level so deaths could potentially mean backtracking, but any rooms searched would not have to be re-searched. System Shock 2 also featured a (rather small) penalty for death, I think if this system were to be used in Unknown, the penalty should be increased to discourage the death abuse seen in games like Bioshock and Prey.<br />Also it would have to have some way to fit into the story and not end up seeming like you are just being resurected for absolutely no reason. Then combine that with a "save and exit" system<br /><br />Still I found the Penumbra system of saving to be more than adequate. Keep up the good work, Looking forward to buying Unknown day 1!!Iron Chitlinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-8019555738245894562009-07-11T12:31:20.816+02:002009-07-11T12:31:20.816+02:00About STALKER; Yea you really are 100 in game when...About STALKER; Yea you really are 100 in game when you play that game sometimes and forgets to save. But If you want to show the game to someone else you have too keep nagging on them about "Save goddammit..."<br />What I wanted to say is that STALKERs system works quite good, the first time you play the game. On Clear Sky I now feel immortal because I can always save and load...<br /><br />Penumbras current save system is the absolutley best for these games, no menues in game or anything. I love it. On Resident Evil you kind of loose the feeling everytime you have to start using a menu in game.<br />SO! Keep the Penumbra-way of saving, it´s the best.Frostynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-67327875685505513522009-07-11T10:49:47.015+02:002009-07-11T10:49:47.015+02:00Yeah, the method of saving is always an issue sinc...Yeah, the method of saving is always an issue since its the main thing that separates games from real life (the fact that you can revive).<br /><br />I like the save spot better for horror games. <br /><br />But I hate the fact that there just happens to be a typewriter (or something else) every now and then. Why not change it up a bit? Every save spot will be different. That way the player is not taken out of the game mood, it encourages exploring and makes the game more challenging since most people will miss some save spots. <br /><br />Maybe even making the save items be in the story (meaning, you read a book and the book is part of the story and the book also happens to be a save item. Next time it will be a globe or a PC).Pedro R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09155622475973504857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-31524057823312832062009-07-09T22:13:36.577+02:002009-07-09T22:13:36.577+02:00KjK:
I assume you are suggesting some variation on...KjK:<br />I assume you are suggesting some variation on the save spot system, but where the save spot is a certain location and can only be used once?<br /><br />This is actually pretty close to the auto save that we have in Penumbra (but that we also added saves after picking up items, etc) and it comes with the problems addressed in the post. Another problem if only relying on this method is that it is really hard to control when to save when levels are not linear. If one allowed only one save at a place the player might go back and spend plenty of time searching some rooms, go back to the room where the save happened and then get killed by an enemy. This would undo all of that searching work and even if no significant items was found, the player would still feel that he/she would have to redo the whole thing, leading to frustration. This even though the save was intended to happen before the enemy encounter.Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02945983378935089787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-14215770164095253472009-07-09T21:56:21.869+02:002009-07-09T21:56:21.869+02:00Very interesting post. Personally, I thought the ...Very interesting post. Personally, I thought the save system in Penumbra was well done. I don't think I ever lost that feeling of dread, I just felt safe for the moment...<br /><br />I do have an idea though...<br />Let's say you're running through a complex of dark passages, like the kennel/research area in Penumbra BP. You notice that one of the corridors is a bit more lit up than most. Running into it, there is a bright flash, such as the one in Penumbra during an autosave. After that, the corridor is just a corridor, and the player cannot use it to save again.<br /><br />I'm sorry if that didn't make much sense. What I'm suggesting, though, is a one-time save spot--a spot as ordinary as a doorway or a cooridor, as my example suggested. This could clear up a lot of problems with traditional save techniques. The player could be at least be reassured they're going in the right direction, easing a lot of frustration, even in a chase sequence, without the game losing atmosphere. This method would also be less out of the way than the "artefacts" in Penumbra. Although this could be used as a single save method, I think a game would be more complete with a completely unobtrusive autosave system, not alerting the player at all that the game has been saved.<br /><br />Anyone else have any thoughts on this idea?Kris Koeckritzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05131410246107206407noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-23316855402149884952009-07-09T15:35:18.875+02:002009-07-09T15:35:18.875+02:00Let me give you an example: S.T.A.L.K.E.R Shadow o...Let me give you an example: S.T.A.L.K.E.R Shadow of Chernobyl.<br />In that game there are quick saves... Mechanics that are know to break the flow more than a 10 month pregnant woman. However, when I played the game, the atmosphere had me so caught up that I forgot to save many many times... I lived off auto saves during quite a long time in that game. With this, I'm saying that, even though you do place a "save wherever you want to" mechanic, as long as it's discreet and the atmopshere eclispes it, you could be all set!<br />That said, I hate quick saves... And seeing one in a horror game would make me cry! But the atmosphere and the game itself were so good that I completely forgot about how much I hated it and I got sucked up in all the wonders the game had to offer...<br /><br />Even so, my recomendation is that you use a similar system to the Penumbra series (Yes, yes... Penumbra is pretty much my favourite game series yet). The fact that the save spots also gave you small hints about the plot was also a big thumbs up in my book... If you can use a similar system to Penumbra and even link the save spots a bit more to the plot, you'll be making a pretty good step... In my agenda, anyway xDTxezcohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00307210349731911213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-53708862612909365822009-07-09T08:53:18.082+02:002009-07-09T08:53:18.082+02:00Karl:
Yes, you are correct about the 4th wall thin...Karl:<br />Yes, you are correct about the 4th wall thing, but I think that common non-game-world mechanics (like saving) can become not noticeable to players if they are transparent enough and used in the right way. Emphasizing on such a mechanic might then bring back the player to the real world. This does not have to be a bad thing though.<br /><br />I earlier said "breaking the 4th wall" like it was a bad thing, which is does not have to be at all. The Resident Evil trick sounds very nice for example.Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02945983378935089787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-91440220153848385052009-07-09T05:42:56.647+02:002009-07-09T05:42:56.647+02:00Well, if you have save spots at all you're bre...Well, if you have save spots at all you're breaking the 4th wall. Even when it's tastefully done, interacting with some object to leave a spot in time you can come back to at will/when you die is hard to ignore. So you might as well get whatever extra value you can out of it.<br /><br />Although, interestingly, I found the autosaves in Penumbra more immersion breaking than the artefacts for the most part; I can only think of one or two times throughout both games that I specifically sought one of them out before doing something I thought would be dangerous, which makes me think you guys were onto something good there even if I wish it had gone a bit farther.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02160128786894045702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-80425418277717327562009-07-08T22:04:53.287+02:002009-07-08T22:04:53.287+02:00Regarding using save spots for horror:
Never actua...Regarding using save spots for horror:<br />Never actually played a game that used this, thanks for the tip! It borders on breaking the 4th wall (like Eternal Darkness does quite a bit), but I am sure it could be used quite nicely for effect. Especially in games like RE where one is quite used to having typewriter locations as safe havens (as pointed out).<br /><br />Regarding Save & Quit:<br />I thought of this as kind of "no save" system as the save is only used for progress recording. Will bring it up in later post.Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02945983378935089787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-54714525993715094302009-07-08T18:46:37.930+02:002009-07-08T18:46:37.930+02:00The save system worked well in Penumbra, in my opi...The save system worked well in Penumbra, in my opinion. It was nice how there was no file system interaction when saving, though I think manual saving was pretty useless anyway. I would almost always rely on the autosaves.<br /><br />I think a good system for your next game would be only autosaves and the "Save & Quit" option the above poster mentioned. Do a check after the player loads an autosave for his health; is it low, give him a small boost.MajorJimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-6033528582504446962009-07-08T17:24:34.299+02:002009-07-08T17:24:34.299+02:00You're missing at least one save type, "S...You're missing at least one save type, "Save & Quit", where you can only save when you quit the game. This only serves the first function; recording progress between sessions and is pretty rare in modern games. It's used in roguelikes and MUDs (well, most online games), and their descendants such as Diablo and modern MMOs.<br /><br />This is often combined with a game mechanic that provides the second function of the save systems. I call them "Regeneration Stations". These serve the second function of saving; a restart point after death. They're somewhat similar to save points, except that the things you did before dying do not get "erased". This system is the most immersive (provided that the regenerating can be handwaved in the story) as you very rarely need to leave the game world. An added benefit is that you usually don't need to look at a loading screen after you die.<br /><br />An interesting combination was in Project Eden, which had Save Anywhere and (literal) Regeneration Stations. I ended up only saving when quitting, as the stations were all I needed otherwise. Oh, and the game still managed to be scary at times, even though there was no way to die permanently. On the other hand, saves in general make "dying permanently" practically impossible.<br /><br />I was happy with the saving in Penumbra, the autosaves were usually in the right places and the savepoints (the artifacts) were integrated into the story. Not being able to save anywhere heightened the tension, and encouraged thinking before acting. I think it could've been interesting if over- or underusing the savepoints had an effect on the story.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-31248682261201797362009-07-08T17:08:59.828+02:002009-07-08T17:08:59.828+02:00Personally I like rare checkpoint style autosaves,...Personally I like rare checkpoint style autosaves, combined with a single temporary save that lets you quit at any time/location without losing progress but is deleted when you load it. I think the system used in Penumbra was better than most, but I would have liked to see it have some other sort of impact on gameplay, too. Some sort of consequence for Philip leaving more and more of himself in them. I also definitely would have gotten read of the flash when autosaving; it was sort of distracting, and there were a couple places where it happened much too frequently.<br /><br />Really I think that whatever solution you take here is best served by solving the same problem chase sequences faced; you need a better way than death to hurt the player because all death does is remind us we're immortal but might have to repeat ourselves now and then. If you solve that, then you don't have to worry about the player being frustrated by repeating a section of gameplay and you can move to a much more transparent save system. Ideally players will never notice or think about how you're saving progress; they'll know you have it taken care of and move on.<br /><br />The only significant alternative is the one mentioned above; look at some of the ways games like Silent Hill or Eternal Darkness have played with save points, and take the ideas you used in Penumbra a few steps farther. Make sure the save system is immersed not only in the game's setting and story, but also in other aspects of gameplay. Have saving take a toll on the character's sanity, let monsters disguise themselves as save points, rearrange objects/rooms/the inventory when you save, introduce some sort of story-based cost to it all. Maybe you've got a story where the protagonist can take over other peoples' bodies or some such, so that when you want to save you need to do something unpleasant to an NPC, and you've got a limited stock of characters you've been interacting with to draw on. That sort of thing.<br /><br />Critically, of course, there still needs to be a distinct and cost-free save when a player's exiting the game.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02160128786894045702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-14254677641911789162009-07-08T16:35:02.762+02:002009-07-08T16:35:02.762+02:00If I remeber correctly, in one of the Resident Evi...If I remeber correctly, in one of the Resident Evil games (probably the wonderful GC remake) one of the save spots are used as a horror moment in itself. Usually when you entered a room with a save spot it would be bright, cozy and warm, full of ammo and supplies making you feel really safe in there. Whenever you got too scared you could always go back to a save room for a breather.<br /><br />However... after a certain event had been triggered one of the save rooms (where you had previously been several times) suddenly became less safe. You'd go in, expecting a safe place to rest for a moment when all of a sudden a zombie would leap out of the closet, obliterating the safe feeling and scaring the living crap out of you.<br /><br />I think this is a great way to turn a players expectations on themselves and using all parts of the game mechanics to fulfill the goal of scaring the player.Tobias Ljungströmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13848029681040433820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-71959575811778595072009-07-08T16:18:12.577+02:002009-07-08T16:18:12.577+02:00Wow! As the other posts about horror games mechani...Wow! As the other posts about horror games mechanics, this one is very interesting. I was a bit surprised with the analisis you used to choose the save system for Penumbra. And I think it worked great!<br />I don't have any favorite save system. But I have one thning that I'm waiting in all horror games: play with the players mind using save spots. That has a name and it is: The salvation wall in Silent Hill 2, the one with the 9 red papers. I think the players starts to seek for save spots with the same interest as they seek for their actual target (reach X room, find X key, rescue X character...), and in some way, starts to "fall in love" with the save spots. So, using that "fetish" for the save-spot objects, you can evocate some horror or madness feelings in the player.Emolhttp://visiongamer.com.arnoreply@blogger.com