tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post1589526340048650049..comments2023-05-20T12:08:52.031+02:00Comments on In The Games Of Madness: Videogames - too much fun for their own good?Frictional Gameshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00278352641328669040noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-76736348874319075292017-04-04T17:22:57.168+02:002017-04-04T17:22:57.168+02:00"What I mean with this article, is that I thi..."What I mean with this article, is that I think we should rethink how we view the foundations of how video games should work. Historically there has been a lot of focus on "finding a fun core gameplay loop" and I think that has, narrative-wise, been very limiting"<br /><br /><br />Point is, the problem itself leads to the questioning of the classical gameplay (which revolves around overcoming obstacles) as the spine of narrative-focused games and if it should be replaced with some other gameplay form.<br /><br />The semifinal paragraph especially seems to favor this direction, praising Dear Esther's contribution to the pursuit of better storytelling means:<br /><br />"I think a much more fruitful approach is to break down games into their basic elements, and then start building from there - now with the core goal of achieving better storytelling. Games like Dear Esther have been great pioneers in this regard, and have shown how building engaging experiences without a lot of features, thought to be crucial, is possible(...)"<br /><br /><br />Which was what I argued against, as non-challenge oriented gameplay is less engaging and also less interesting narrative-wise as it lacks the theme of struggle.<br /><br />(Note: One might think that the abandonment of 'classical gameplay' doesn't necessarily equals the removal of challenge but I would argue that trying to provide interesting challenges to the player is the classical gameplay design in a nutshell.)<br /><br /><br /><br />Now, my souggestion would be to keep the classical approach of core activities, but focus on developing narrative and gameplay as two interdependant entities.<br /><br />Let's try this angle: The writer's goal is to develop a narrative while the designer's to design interesting challenges. The point of contact is that both assignments are heavily concerned about what the 'main character' does, as the agent of the narrative and as the playable character.<br /><br />For narrative and gameplay to coexist it would require for the core activities to be meaningful narrative-wise, and for the narrative to settle up objectives that present some kind of challenge in order to be completed.<br /><br />A lot of quests in VTM Bloodlines work like that for example, like sneaking past the receptionist of the clinic to avoid waiting in line. Another good example is doing the secondary "tasks" in the original Silent Hill to change the game's ending.<br /><br />From my point of view, this is interactive storytelling in some of it's finest implementations and I would certainly like to see more games trying something similar.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-21189332609342840592017-04-03T20:31:41.378+02:002017-04-03T20:31:41.378+02:00Thomas, the story is important, but don't forg...Thomas, the story is important, but don't forget the horror, the interaction, the puzzles etc.Googlodexnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-5297050860851424262017-04-03T20:28:21.706+02:002017-04-03T20:28:21.706+02:00To be honest. As much I enjoyed "Dear Esther&...To be honest. As much I enjoyed "Dear Esther" but why the hell people praise it for its great storytelling? It's just a walking simulator where a voice is talking to you like you listen an audiobook. This is very easy design with scripted dialog files. That's the way how this game tell its story. I know Dan Pinchbeck is one of the best story writers and game designers out there, but "Dear Esther" is not really a game of hard work.<br /><br />Games like Gothic, Silent Hill, Amnesia, SOMA, The Cat Lady & Downfall does a lot better job about intelligent storytelling.Googlodexnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-72815695785369326582017-04-03T17:52:06.160+02:002017-04-03T17:52:06.160+02:00I certainly agree wit the general sentiment of the...I certainly agree wit the general sentiment of the article. Video games have continually focused far too much on gameplay and left narrative in the dust. It's interesting to think about it on the basis of engagement and complexity.<br /><br />However, I don't see that video games have been as stagnant as you are claiming. It first has to be taken into account that, unlike film, video games have had to build their foundations from nothing. Film could pull from the ideas of live plays immediately, whereas video games had to first create visual and mechanical systems that are capable of expressing the same level of story as film or plays. In other words, film started with a toolbox and had to differentiate themselves whereas games have had to create their toolbox. <br /><br />It also seems that a large piece of the puzzle has been left out, that being the inherent interactivity of games. The adventure game succeeded at narrative storytelling because it also created linear stories. These petered out because why would you play a linear story when watching or reading it can be more engaging? So much of storytelling in film and literature has focused on details and intentionality. Video games have tried to follow this, but the inherent interactivity of games complicates the intentionality which is key to standard methods of storytelling. In other words, video games are treading strange waters storytelling wise. We not only have to add narrative to games, but figure out how to make that a "gaming experience" which feeds off of and relies on the medium itself.<br /><br />I hope that made sense. You're article was very enlightening and well written. Vinrafelhttps://www.youtube.com/user/Vinrafelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-15507729900871784682017-04-03T08:45:04.537+02:002017-04-03T08:45:04.537+02:00Worthwhile that I don't think we should strive...Worthwhile that I don't think we should strive to remove challenge or anything like that. In fact, challenges (or at least the aspects that surrounds that feature) and possibly one of the most important ones for the medium. Your examples are all good. Being the one with agency in a story is what I find so interesting about games.<br /><br />What I mean with this article, is that I think we should rethink how we view the foundations of how video games should work. Historically there has been a lot of focus on "finding a fun core gameplay loop" and I think that has, narrative-wise, been very limiting.<br /><br />Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02945983378935089787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-12293051201665640472017-04-02T19:26:15.062+02:002017-04-02T19:26:15.062+02:00"It is my belief that in order to make more p..."It is my belief that in order to make more progress, we need to start analyzing what makes games special and, instead of just applying these findings in classical ways, figure out new ways by which they can increase our sense of interactive storytelling."<br /><br /><br />What makes games so engaging is that, while in other media the struggle exists simply as a 'spectacle', here it becomes something that you take part in, a 'challenge'. You don't just watch the conflict, you are actually struggling.<br /><br />In a horror movie, when the protagonist walks down a dark alley, you are waiting for the monster to appear. In a horror game, you are moving slowly trying to do as less noise as you can while you are ready to run if the monster suddenly appears.<br /><br />This is why walking around in Slenderman feels tense: you have to move carefully and choose the right time to sprint, knowing that it is *your* actions that will decide if Slenderman will catch you or not. Challenge is the key explaining the engagement.<br /><br />Removing challenge from games will not improve their narratives, and if it does it will do it in expense of their most unique feature, that special feeling of being present inside the game's world.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-50924959232252800272017-03-31T21:53:53.439+02:002017-03-31T21:53:53.439+02:00Yeah, true. I remember we talked with Dan Pinchbec...Yeah, true. I remember we talked with Dan Pinchbeck how in the Tale of tales' The Path when we found flowers it kinda became the game about collecting flowers instead of anything else. But even if you ignore flowers, it was easy to get into the "okay, I run around, find place, find Wolf, do bad stuff, get in the house, have first person moment, next character" mindset after the first 2 or even one and a half character playthroughs. Because the way of interaction, the gameplay, the loop of it, became very... readable and following that template was what I did, instead of following a weird abstract tale.<br />Although, it is pretty easy to unserstand WHY gameplay loops exist, as they do make making games so much cheaper than implementing constantly new mechanics and animations and etc to go with whatever the story might be needing.<br />But I do think this can be broken, even if it leads to more condensed smaller games (I'd actually usually prefer that too), if smart planning for storytelling mechanics is implemented. Hell, even your games tried to not stick to one specific structure starting with Amnesia, and that is an important change for story=driven games.Klardenhttp://klarden.dumdoi.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-38408145244592955402017-03-31T10:35:20.514+02:002017-03-31T10:35:20.514+02:00Aside from stealth and combat, I think we must sea...Aside from stealth and combat, I think we must search more for mechanics that really tell a story. Not mechanics that just don't break it, or the story that will not interfere with the core game play.<br /><br />Currently the huge part of all the narrative in games just explains what happened before we, the player, get there. But the real thrill is when we actually press that button and all the things happen. And that's the field where walking simulators fail.Андрей Сараевhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12564916461316207126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-21885575920860433122017-03-31T08:54:01.757+02:002017-03-31T08:54:01.757+02:00Excellent point!
Will be interesting to see what ...Excellent point!<br /><br />Will be interesting to see what this means for the medium. <br /><br />It feels like currently most stuff either fallback on classical gameplay or film.Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02945983378935089787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-52846429523351003252017-03-31T08:53:06.907+02:002017-03-31T08:53:06.907+02:00Yeah I think that is a very interesting path! And ...Yeah I think that is a very interesting path! And that is just why horror games are so interesting from a narrative standpoint.<br /><br />But problem is that the progress usually stops at "so the player will dread at facing certain enemies", and then it is not expanded into a more complex narrative. You clearly see this in Alien Isolation where they got a really nice core loop of stealth going and then they use the narrative as a supportive structure around that. Now this core loop as a lot of valuable things narrative-wise, but imo that is just a beginning, and we see little attempts at taking it further.<br /><br />Again, the issue is that once you get a play-loop (something similar to the classical gameplay) going, games tend to cling on to that in favor of making the experience engaging in a holistic manner.Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02945983378935089787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-27721868451739921272017-03-31T08:48:34.204+02:002017-03-31T08:48:34.204+02:00Yeah it is really rare that games go the route of ...Yeah it is really rare that games go the route of "What gameplay can I use to enhance the narrative?". It is not hard to see why though, because it is way easier to do it the other way around.<br /><br />That said though. I think a lot of game projects start of the type: <br />- We want to do a game that has lots of dinosaurs in it and they are really dangerous, what sorta gameplay works with this?<br />- Well it can be open world stealth?<br />- Yeah that works!<br />And then you start building a stealth game with the intention of having dinos. And you will make a lot of choices, gameplay-wise, that makes sure that you will actually have dangerous dinosaurs in the end. <br />So it is unfair to say that "most games only care about the gameplay", when many do take the narrative into account. THe problem, as I see it, is that the gameplay still is the thing that carries the experience. And that once you have your core loop in, no narrative choice is allowed to mess with that.<br />Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02945983378935089787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-12535013526819289032017-03-30T16:45:57.616+02:002017-03-30T16:45:57.616+02:00What I might suggest for building a narratively-fo...What I might suggest for building a narratively-focussed game is to start with the narrative, then look for interactions that work with and support that narrative. Not necessarily traditional interactions, note--indeed, the idea is to find mechanics fitted to the story, whether new or old.<br /><br />(That said, I don't mean to suggest that this is the only way--just a way that seems like a good idea to me.)<br /><br />I have two examples offhand: a Sherlock Holmes game and a "Lovecraftian" horror.<br /><br />Sherlock Holmes:<br /><br />A central part of Sherlock Holmes, it seems to me, is his perception--that trait by which he notices the smallest of details and connects them to form impressive deductions.<br /><br />To this end, we might have a game in which the player moves around in first-person, and as they look around various details in the environment are highlighted for them. These can be selected and linked with each other to generate deductions, which can eventually become evidence in the case. Conversation might be similar, with the player drawing phrases out of the conversation-text to link to previously-discovered points.<br /><br />Lovecraft:<br /><br />A Lovecraft game might play with the Frictional classic of "not looking at the monster"--but perhaps >require< that the player do so in order to progress.<br /><br />Looking at eldritch things--monsters, tomes, symbols, etc.--might have increasing "sanity effects" (albeit hopefully nothing too immersion-breaking or silly) and perhaps, if done too much, result in a game over. It may also call the character to the attention of the eldritch horrors involved, resulting in more (and more powerful) creatures appearing.<br /><br />However, only by looking at these things can the player learn the information that will progress the plot. (And perhaps a certain drop in "sanity" is additionally required to open or reveal certain eldritch doorways?)<br /><br />Thus there's a tension: in order to go forward, the player must do something that "hurts" their character, and perhaps even makes gameplay a little more difficult.<br /><br />(I mention creatures, but I imagine that there would be no combat in such a game: survival might involve avoidance, appeasement, or occasional use of dark arts to ward off creatures.)Thaumaturgehttp://www.thaumaturge-art.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-85296640101025627922017-03-30T16:37:12.665+02:002017-03-30T16:37:12.665+02:00Did you even play games? There are a ton of great ...Did you even play games? There are a ton of great games outside of generic AAA spunkgurgleweewees and indie nostalgia pixelart puzzleplatformers with popculture references to mario.<br /><br /><br />Dear esther have ZERO narrative, all it narrates is that you are a hovering pair of eyes which can't change height above ground or derivate from one single line which climbs the ubisoft tower and rides a seagul into the sunset. Games are not hot wheels track, not movies and not books nor audio books. All narration in games is done through the interaction, kinaesthetics and player agency. Tomb raider is a game about climbing rocks tomb raider 2013 is a game about slamming E and killing thousands of doods in the face. displaynamehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04028610639861485462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-7557999256158648272017-03-30T16:37:12.245+02:002017-03-30T16:37:12.245+02:00I love reading every new article on here. Core gam...I love reading every new article on here. Core gameplay is definitely always the first focus, it's what I'm trying to learn right now as a beginner. I'm a huge fan of narrative in games though, and it's been a struggle to get focused on that core before trying to fit in a narrative to my project.<br /><br />Like other comments have stated, I think alternative methods of storytelling will be one of the keys to engaging gameplay and compelling narrative becoming more cohesive in video games.Kevin L.https://github.com/DrSharkynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-78889582641272975922017-03-30T14:32:58.020+02:002017-03-30T14:32:58.020+02:00Virtual Reality is a good analog to Fred Ott's...Virtual Reality is a good analog to Fred Ott's Sneeze - people are entertained by thoroughly inane experiences due to the novelty of the technology. Or at least they were. Sometime last year.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-50071734675366752482017-03-30T14:26:21.740+02:002017-03-30T14:26:21.740+02:00And what do you think about a mechanical dread of ...And what do you think about a mechanical dread of stealth games where enemies are just hard or nearly impossible to fight (Thief, Alien: Isolation)? Isn't it the way — to create a system which will produce a reason to fear, not to recreate bare symptoms?Андрей Сараевhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12564916461316207126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-8539994784928168152017-03-30T14:18:32.535+02:002017-03-30T14:18:32.535+02:00Good one. There's a thing I'd argue about,...Good one. There's a thing I'd argue about, which is not the point of your article, however, and it's curious to see us both get to it from similar approach - I'm doing a script to a video to explore what "horror games" are and should that be called a "genre" even, or more of a "theme". I think the second is more correct, but won't be surprised if I change my mind as I continue writing and researching (I started with classic Gothic literature and then, of course, movies, like you did here:)).<br />Either way, to the case you actually explore here - good write up and I very much agree on many things. Games indeed have a lot of proven interactions that age very well and remain fun through years, however we are also seeing more complex interactions and mechanical concepts evolve and grow, that weren't possible (or were possible but were done in a very clunky way earlier and, as a result, didn't age well.<br />And I also fully agree on the aspect that videogame media, as a whole, might need to rethink the approach to story-driven titles. As in - not kill the old flesh and all, but just see what ELSE can be done in a completely different way. Not "start with basic interaction and grow from here". But "start with basic way you can tell the story you wish to tell through the medium, and see if you can tell this story more effectively if you add more interactions". Pretty exciting time to live in for this kind of change and evolution in games :)Klardenhttp://klarden.dumdoi.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-50444402779088235762017-03-30T13:30:17.045+02:002017-03-30T13:30:17.045+02:00Darks souls and Bloodborne excel gameplay and narr...Darks souls and Bloodborne excel gameplay and narrative in interesting way. Narration is visual and suggestive. Apart of dialogue and inventory reading, it's left to player's interpretation. It's possible to neglect the whole story itself but environment and level design speak the plot sequence in their own visual way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com