tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post25646974064513086..comments2023-05-20T12:08:52.031+02:00Comments on In The Games Of Madness: The Problem of RepetitionFrictional Gameshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00278352641328669040noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-10094995779106611282013-03-07T12:48:21.157+01:002013-03-07T12:48:21.157+01:00WOW, I'm really late to the party, but this is...WOW, I'm really late to the party, but this is by far your best blog post on this site. For real. Thomas, if you follow this philosophy to the fullest you can, you and your team mates will probably go down in history for incredible experiences. You guys are the best, keep on innovating. I love you all :)<br /><br />-Jesse PAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-61471026029993932532012-01-24T23:28:50.635+01:002012-01-24T23:28:50.635+01:00Bit late for a comment, but I had to comment that ...Bit late for a comment, but I had to comment that this truly was the reason I could not enjoy Mass Effect. It consistently ruined any sense of immersion I had in the game. Most notably with Liara's repeating dialogue after the end of every mission. Saying the same lines, and returning to the medical bay. Where she would again say the same lines, followed by one or two lines of new dialogue.<br /><br />Honestly, I've grown so used to skipping dialogue in Bioware RPGs (starting with Neverwinter Nights) that I routinely get lost in the few games that don't rely upon blatant info dumps. Which I think is a learned flaw as a player. I used to love writing down notes and keeping journals--both mental and physical just to explore game worlds. My Morrowind map had pins in it with notes, and in the days of adventure games, I had books of notes for puzzles and clues.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-58774167173252247902012-01-02T14:47:49.713+01:002012-01-02T14:47:49.713+01:00What you pointed out is not really a problem! This...What you pointed out is not really a problem! This i what single player games are about. Tho there are games with non-linear stories such as RPGs! Another approeach is multiplayer where players create their own games/matches, with each different events. Thats why MMORPG are so widely recognized and played by millions.<br /><br />FPS and action all games are all about repitition. Repitition calls player to improve his reflexes and gameplay skills. <br />Answer to this were lately released FPS such as Call of Duty Modern Warefare or Medal of Honor. Tho their stories were linear and completely wiped out of player choices.<br /><br /><br /><br />For me a prefect single player game would offer me more than few choices and create consequences of it further extending story. <br /><br />There are games similiar to this idea such as KOTOR I & II or Mass Effect tho they could be still better and offer more choices. It is far from perfect game.<br /><br />What I loved Penumbra for was atmosphere - completely better than in AMnesia imho. Story placed in our times is far more itneresting. What I got dissapointed at was we got handed explanation about what is happening. I would much rather have unexplained story with good ending so I could try and think of answer myself.<br /><br />What I loved about Amnesia is that we could choose ending after getting to know the real Daniel and his past.<br /><br />Greeting and respect guys. I love you!BiTTRUSThttp://www.youtube.com/user/BiTTRUSTnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-55072260587260331632011-12-16T09:32:35.375+01:002011-12-16T09:32:35.375+01:00Great blog post,it was very intresting to read :)Great blog post,it was very intresting to read :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-20143218028971593502011-12-15T23:39:17.893+01:002011-12-15T23:39:17.893+01:00Nothing to do with the blog post but could you guy...Nothing to do with the blog post but could you guys please update Amnesia: The Dark Descent to show Frictional Games as the developer in Steam? I use the list view in Steam games library with developer showing and it shows blank for Amnesia. My OCD doesn't cope well with that.<br /><br />Keep up the good work with the blog and the games! Amnesia was my favourite game last year. Looking forward for your next game.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-36966527525780373762011-12-10T17:15:30.503+01:002011-12-10T17:15:30.503+01:00Or some emotional ingame scenes lets you feel goos...Or some emotional ingame scenes lets you feel goose pimples into your heart.<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jut5_hH25Nk<br /><br />This is what games need.<br />Penumbra & Amnesia had great endings, sad and no really end-boss fights makes them to an unique fantastic ending. But there are any other games that have the same hot stuff.<br />I love this feelings when playing such games!<br />This is what games make unique.<br /><br />Games like Batlefield 3 or Final Fantasy are own games in it's separate way. They have different goals, but they never interested me, because I need a great story with something behind.<br />So we can talk about the dialogue system, but this really have no influence about the core game.<br />Old games like Gothic have the same dialogue problems, but that really doesn't make the game bad.<br />There are so many other more important things a good game must have.bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08674095854725839696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-62166810992872368122011-12-10T16:59:03.765+01:002011-12-10T16:59:03.765+01:00Yeah, I thought the same thing. But before writing...Yeah, I thought the same thing. But before writing a book of other games, I write my own story.<br /><br />Amnesia was a great game, but the ending was very strange. Alexander flying in the air and all the magical lights. All that was very strange and not place in the setting of Amnesia. Penumbra also had a strange part with the Tuurngait. It means to be in heaven and the Tuurngait is the god what leads you. But it all takes a wrong place in the Penumbra setting.<br /><br />Looking of the ending of The Witcher 2 for example. It is very emotional.<br />The enemy you hounted all the game isn't evil at the end. You'll see that the evil isn't evil when you look behind it.<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1zOiaBJ9tk&feature=related<br /><br />Something gets changed and you see that you aren't the only right man.<br />This game is very emotional and you learn something for your life.<br />Amnesia had the same learning, but the ending lost credibility.bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08674095854725839696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-42856195887260211402011-12-08T04:46:35.918+01:002011-12-08T04:46:35.918+01:00You should write a book about your thoughts of a g...You should write a book about your thoughts of a good game.Xnerdzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08298496400960401751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-1468680919366383672011-12-03T22:47:00.349+01:002011-12-03T22:47:00.349+01:00I forget to post a gameplay video of Gothic at the...I forget to post a gameplay video of Gothic at the beginning.<br />Great dialogues and drab atmosphere!<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsDz0A2tz7Ebloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08674095854725839696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-85715717343262148652011-12-03T22:41:32.460+01:002011-12-03T22:41:32.460+01:00@Thomas
None of this games would give me an immers...@Thomas<br />None of this games would give me an immersion feeling. I'm lack of interested by watching trailers and gameplays.<br />Either it is kitschy fantasy cliche with bizarre monsters and implausible style. A game have to look credible!<br />So there are only less RPGs and adventures that haven't this action fantasy style. Good games like you developed.<br />Some are old, but very immersing in story, atmosphere, gameplay and puzzles.<br /><br />I give you some tips for games you really should try.<br />They're good in it's own way, good like Penumbra & Amnesia are.<br /><br />- Gothic<br />- Gothic II - Night of the Raven<br /><br />- Risen<br /><br />- The Witcher<br />- The Witcher 2: Assassin's of Kings<br /><br />- Tomb Raider: Legend<br /><br />- Indiana Jones and the infernal machine<br /><br /><br />This are rare good games from great artists.<br />May, when you have some time, you should take a glance of this games.<br />Gothic for example has the same dialogue problem you described, but this game is from 2001 and that doesn't really destroy the feeling.bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08674095854725839696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-71932163867816380632011-12-03T11:06:21.662+01:002011-12-03T11:06:21.662+01:00This was an amazing post. I can't believe how ...This was an amazing post. I can't believe how much you share my thoughts. While reading your post the game I had in mind was Skyrim. It was like perfect description of it. Bad, automated dialogues, repetition, etc. I don't really get how that game got such high grades on reviews. <br />But anyway, this was a great post, it's really good to see how other people think about games. Keep up the good work!Darionoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-8127291380049482912011-12-02T18:31:00.934+01:002011-12-02T18:31:00.934+01:00blogger:
Now most recently:
- Planescape: Torment....blogger:<br />Now most recently:<br />- Planescape: Torment.<br />- The Dream Machine<br />- To The Moon<br /><br />But there are lots of other in mind as I wrote it like Oblivion, Final Fantasy, etc.Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02945983378935089787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-33896142625662109352011-12-02T17:55:43.756+01:002011-12-02T17:55:43.756+01:00Thomas, which adventures and RPGs have you played?...Thomas, which adventures and RPGs have you played?<br />I'm interested to know from what games you get the impressions.bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08674095854725839696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-78291654887913119562011-12-01T12:10:52.153+01:002011-12-01T12:10:52.153+01:00I loved reading this blog - as someone who has nev...I loved reading this blog - as someone who has never really been into developing or creating games, but as an avid player (and I thoroughly enjoyed the Penumbra series) I really love finding out about the inner workings of how games are created.<br /><br />On the subject of repitition, the only problem (and it is a very small one) that I found with Amnesia was the repitition of the 'find chemicals to mix together somehow' puzzles towards the bginning. I know there was only two, for the acid and the explosive, but for me it seemed somewhat like an excuse for another puzzle.<br /><br />Apart from this, I adored the game, and I didn't find the small variation in monsters to be an issue as they are seen so rarely because of the run and hide mechanics. Saying this however, on a subconscious level, maybe more variation would have improved the experience even further.<br />I didn't see anything wrong with the read out-loud diary entries, I kinda figured they were meant to be memories as opposed to Daniel reading them out loud.<br /><br />All I'll say is this - you guys sound absolutely committed to creating amazing games every time, and if your next creation is anywhere near as good as Amnesia, or even improved upon (it sounds like you're really trying to unpick every aspect through these blogs) then we are all going to be EXTREMELY happy gamers, and you are going to be very rich developers!Kiefnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-33981624966100980542011-11-29T21:13:35.572+01:002011-11-29T21:13:35.572+01:00Repetition is a main theme in my writing.
I will ...Repetition is a main theme in my writing. <br />I will try to sum up the key concepts of my ideas below.<br /><br />Nothing is created, everything is edited.<br />In fractal structure there is an underlying shape repeating itself in rotation and miniaturization. Then again it can be applied to a pattern, a form and even an idea. A pattern occurs when at least 3 elements are connect by a stringed logic. Complex and/or extense patterns tend to be hard to be described in mathematical equations or texts just by looking at it, we tend to perceive them more as texture and/or not inter-related compositional elements.<br />A series of elements must be interwoven to form a uniformity known as consistency, image if in a game you find an axe and break a lock with it, then later on you find very similar locks scattered in doors, gates or whatever and none of them are able to been broken with the axe, it just give us a sense of unbelievable situation. The experiences perceived in games don't need to be believable outsite their own universe, they only need some internal logic to work just fine.<br />The difference between the medicine and the poison is in the concentration, when an element is over-repeated the solution saturates and generates non uniformity through the appearence of different phases: the fun that will be known later as the proto-boredoom and the boredoom of operating a stressful machinarium of pressing buttons to meet the goals the software spits on your face. Little repetition and too much repetition destroys the experience.<br /><br />Sorry for the unpolishedness of my comment and thoughts, I don't even know where my previous texts are, I'm just sending some stuff that suddenly appeared in my mind.Filipe Russohttp://www.goodreads.com/russonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-9642633389249948332011-11-28T21:54:14.024+01:002011-11-28T21:54:14.024+01:00intgr:
Good example! I really agree to that. There...intgr:<br />Good example! I really agree to that. There was a lot of stuff that went wrong with Agrippa, but I think we learned tons from it and can use that for our upcoming game.Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02945983378935089787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-57426257417341795682011-11-28T15:25:45.380+01:002011-11-28T15:25:45.380+01:00> if you feel like a conversation is really mea...> if you feel like a conversation is really meaningful, and then later on<br />> find this same character reduced to mechanics, it will change the way<br />> you view your prior experience.<br /><br />This is exactly how I felt about Agrippa in Amnesia. At the beginning, the game created a nice image of him as someone worth saving. Every time I went past him, he had something meaningful to say.<br /><br />However, since I was kinda stuck, I went by him quite a lot. And once he ran out of things to say, he started to repeat things like "Hurry up, there's no time to lose", etc.<br /><br />Part of it is that what he uttered was simply annoying, but the repetition is what destroyed his character. By the time I got to the end, I couldn't care less about saving Agrippa's head.intgrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02974314893080470877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-38348988888063676492011-11-28T14:28:00.850+01:002011-11-28T14:28:00.850+01:00I'm getting into this blogging malarky thing.
...I'm getting into this blogging malarky thing.<br /><br />(as a flash developer, getting into games development (after being a lifelong chosen gaming as my primary entertainment source since I was about 4years old in the 80's i'm slowly growing into what I've always dreamt of doing. )<br /><br />my dream of a mercenary->elite mash-up on current gen systems where you can go anyway and do anything, comes under scrutiny http://www.boff.se/?p=523 <br /> <br />repetition is a word i should have used ;) <br />Go anywhere in our wolds and do the exact same 5 things you could do in the begining of the game, but we are forcing you via stats and level to do them somewhere else and declare that as gameplay.Boffhttp://boff.senoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-50489671774493102422011-11-27T18:21:29.447+01:002011-11-27T18:21:29.447+01:00"We must teach them them live in our virtual ..."We must teach them them live in our virtual worlds instead of trying to beat our game systems."<br /><br />Ha, the above strikes home, as my pre-alpha version of my forthcoming game has this text in it:<br />"This is not a game you “try to beat.” It is not competitive. It rewards thought and is paced so that there is time to think."Jack Everitthttp://www.mercatorgames.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-65315825837986385802011-11-27T15:55:50.527+01:002011-11-27T15:55:50.527+01:00So for the next game how about less scripted event...So for the next game how about less scripted events, more variations of monsters?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-33738937923519070492011-11-27T10:35:51.421+01:002011-11-27T10:35:51.421+01:00This is perhaps one of the best game/storytelling ...This is perhaps one of the best game/storytelling design posts you made thus far.<br /><br />I especially liked it when you said that the story should emerge from the gameplay (instead of being told) - that, IMO, is the core concept.<br /><br />I always wanted a game where characters generally don't posses some exclusive knowledge that will enable you to go further - I want characters with doubts, assumptions, wrong interpretations... That would make them much more lifelike.<br /><br />Of course, the problem then becomes: how, then, can the player figure out what is expected of him/her?<br />And that's where your "change in our thinking" comes in. A subtly guided gameplay. Exploration. Reaching conclusions on our own, as opposed to them being fed to us. Sure, there can be sections which require precise tasks; but overall, everything should be geared towards "living" the experience. It's the experience itself that needs to be central to the design, and the dynamics of it, from the beginning of the game, to it's very end.<br /><br />However, avoiding repetition requires variety, and you can only have so much of it due to technical (or temporal) limitations. But, where achieving a reasonable amount of (realistic) variety is possible, especially if it can be procedural, the chance shouldn't be skipped.<br />What can help here is knowing that in games, we don't really need to simulate reality, we just need to make it <i>seem</i> real enough, within the domain of the mechanics and the experience created. That is, we often don't have to model the actual physical properties of real-world phenomena - we can simply take into consideration in what ways the player can possibly encounter them in the game, and take the advantage of that information to create a simplified model, but one effective in the given context.<br />This, of course, means that our implementation becomes more game-specific, but that doesn't mean we can't take that approach, and still equip the engine with general enough tools - the tools just need to stop being tools for running simulations, and instead become tools for <i>creating/modeling</i> simulations. Then, providing a few out-of-the-box potentially useful simulations to be used from within the engine toolset is not a problem; but the power lies in the fact that there is extensibility and reuse potential here.<br /><br /><br />P.S. What you said about Amnesia's monsters: <br />The fact that there was repetition involved is diminished by the fact that monster encounters were relatively rare in the game. I loved the game, but I always felt that you skipped a chance there: since the monsters are few and apart, and since there's only two types of them, you only had to design two creatures; having only two creatures meant that you could create several models of the same creature to provide variety in their appearance and a certain individuality to them, and have this variety consistent throughout the game (in games with a lot of creatures, this would require too much work and horsepower). You could have increased the number of variations even further by providing several different texture-sets for each creature.<br />You might ask: will the player even notice it, given that monsters are rarely seen? Is it worth the extra effort?<br />I think it is. It nurtures, on a subconscious level, a sense of verisimilitude you hold in so high esteem.<br />And just imagine that scene near the end of the game when the player get's attacked by a <i>group</i> of Amnesia's monsters: wouldn't it be cool if they all looked different? One skinny, one tall, one female, one with different metallic implants, one slow, one fast, some of them with different sound effects?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-24296736270218576732011-11-27T07:21:57.215+01:002011-11-27T07:21:57.215+01:00Also: a great example of this would be Heavy Rain....Also: a great example of this would be Heavy Rain. I say it's almost impossible to replay the game because of how apparent the system becomes. That is also why you never die/have to retry part of the game. The whole game relies on this concept of non repetition and this is possibly the only/main good thing about it's design.Pietro - Santa Ragionehttp://www.santaragione.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9193968969153274146.post-18368940949234794392011-11-27T07:15:53.240+01:002011-11-27T07:15:53.240+01:00Great entry as always, thanks.Great entry as always, thanks.Pietro - Santa Ragionehttp://www.santaragione.comnoreply@blogger.com